GUN Civilian spray 'n pray

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Dranian, Jul 12, 2005.

  1. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

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    For my next firearm purchase I'm hoping to get something automatic. I know it has to have been registered as a machine gun prior to May 19, 1986. I'm not really sure whats available though, since I'm only really familiar with handguns. I like the look of the FN P90 but I don't know if they were around before the cutoff date. I also like the Glock 18 but I'm aware that these are impossible to obtain. I'm not too fond of the AK. I also like HK firearms and I've heard that for around $10,000 I could buy a sear that was registered before the ban and put it into any HK 9x series to convert it to a automatic version of that weapon. I'm not sure if thats what I want to do yet or not though.

    What civilian legal automatic firearm would you recommend and why? How much should I expect to spend?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.
     
  2. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    Probably the most reliable NFA machinegun you could buy is an Uzi. You can get a mini Uzi, or an Uzi carbine. They're running around $5-7k right now. M16's are equally fun, and pretty reliable. More expensive to shoot, though, by far. They're running about $9k right now. You really have to look around if you want to find a good deal. With NFA stuff, you're going to be playing the waiting game anyways (less so if you incorporate and file your Form 4 under a coporation), so waiting to save yourself a couple grand is a good idea.

    HK stuff is cool, and definitely fun, but you have to remember that HK stuff is also less reliable. MP5's are NOT firearms I'd want to put thousands of rounds through if it were my own NFA piece. The recievers dimple and you really need an armorer on hand to maintain an MP5 if you're shooting it a lot. Things break on them.

    M16's are completely serviceable by the user, and the nice thing is that the reciever, the registered part, is pretty much indestructible. Uzis are damn indestructible. You can buy an entire Uzi parts kit for nothing. You really can't wear out the reciever on one, and they're cheap to shoot, and pretty controllable.

    I wouldn't get any shoulder-fired rifle-caliber machine gun except an M16. The only other one that's really controllable is the Sig 55x series, and I'm not sure if they're even transferrable. M16's are a blast to shoot, but like I said, the ammo is expensive. I wouldn't bother getting a Mac or anything, just because they're not accurate, and they're not going to be investment pieces like the other NFA items are.

    My recommendation is that you find out from your state what the process and cost is for incorporating. In GA, it's $100, and it takes no time at all. You contact the state, they send you a packet on what to do, and it even has basic articles of incorporation already drawn up for you. Just fill in the blanks. FL may be similar.

    The benefits of incorporating are that you don't have to get a Chief Law Enforcement Officer to sign your Form 4. The NFA piece doesn't have to be sold or destroyed if you die, because the corporation owns it, and you can pass ownership of the corporation to someone else. You can allow other people, such as a wife, other family, etc. to be in possession of the piece without your presence, since any corporate officers are permited to possess the piece. So, your wife can take it to the range if she wants and you don't have to go. You forgo the background and fingerprints, and the background check they do is very short compared to if you don't incorporate.

    So far, no one I've hear from has had to pay taxes on "inventory" from the company owning an NFA firearm, because it's not an item of real commercial value, and its real value is extremely difficult to determine. Unless your corporation actually deals NFA items, you're pretty much clear, because it's not considered inventory so much as a fixture or piece of furniture or something.

    Hope that helps some.
     
  3. blkgs4

    blkgs4 New Member

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    What's your budget?
     
  4. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    2nd the Uzi if you want a good reliable investment for less $$$, but I'd personally go for a M16 or a registered drop-in auto sear (RDIAS) for the AR15. With the RDIAS you can legally put in auto internals and convert many modern AR's into automatic.
     
  5. Echoratz

    Echoratz New Member

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    Be prepared to wait 6 months to a year for a florida class 3 to go thru. Cost is 200 for the tax stamp.
     
  6. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

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    I dunno, I have a good amount of money saved up. I could afford maybe $15,000 or so, but I'd really prefer not to.
     
  7. mzmtg

    mzmtg New Member

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  8. mzmtg

    mzmtg New Member

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  9. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    It's not a Class III anything. Read a little bit more before you start talking about things of which you do not know. It's a tax stamp, nothing more, nothing less. There's no license to get. The DEALER has the Class III Federal Firearms License, also called an SOT, or Special Occupational Tax. This allows him to deal in NFA firearms. That is, National Firearms Act, or the set of laws governing a certain group of firearms and other assorted items, like suppressors.

    In ANY state that allows the ownership of machineguns, you may incorporate, and have the corporation purchase the item, as I've stated already. This forgoes that wait and in-depth background check. AND, on top of that, it doesn't matter what state you're from when you DO get a full FBI check like that, it takes just as long. The only thing I'd say as far as speeding up the application process is to incorporate now, so that when you find something to buy, you've got that done. Then, when you mail your Form 4, mail it to the DC office, NOT the Chicago one. The Chicago office just sends it to the DC office anyways. Typical times for a corporation are 3 months or so, sometimes less.

    Kelly is right, a Registered Drop-In Autosear (RDIAS or DIAS) is a cool thing to have. Lightning Links are also another piece of machinegun fun. The DIAS converts your properly equipped AR15 into, basically, an M16. The DIAS is the registered part, and can be put in any rifle, no worries. Same as the Lightning Link, only LL's only allow SAFE and AUTO fire, no SEMI. The DIAS allows SAFE, SEMI, and AUTO. If you don't have an AR15, this would factor into the cost of a DIAS or LL, but it still comes out to cheaper than buying a registered M16. The downside is that they're not as much of an investment piece as an M16 would be. Also, I'm not sure how it'd work rebuilding one if it were broken. The laws are kind of funny sometimes about how to service or rebuild NFA items. M16's were going for just over $5k in 2002. Now they're about double that for just a normal one. For something special or collectible, they're far more. An M16A2-marked Colt registered reciver went for $20k before 2002. My best friend bought it for around half that. They're a little more rare than the rest of the M16's. In December, Uzis were $5k. Now they're $7k. I know this, because my best friend also bought a new-in-box Vektor Uzi, and promptly turned it for $7k to a guy who just wanted it badly. If you look around, you'll get a feel for what's out there, and what costs what. Some pieces are more fun than value, and some are more value than fun. Hell, Ma Deuces can be had for $10-15k, but the cost of ammo and the inability to shoot them at any ranges nearby keeps most people in the NFA game from buying them. .50 BMG ammo, at the cheapest I've seen, is $1.25/rd for linked surplus, before shipping.

    Anyways, hope that's a little more insight.
     
  10. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Active Member

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    Umm, maybe he was talking about it being a Class III firearm; i.e. saying a Class III weapon vs. saying NFA... :squint:
     
  11. Echoratz

    Echoratz New Member

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    ^ Well if thats the case that florida gun exchange has been lying to me the whole time, which is possible.


    Edit- Usmc Thats what I was talking about yes.
     
  12. RealFastV6

    RealFastV6 OMFGh4x0rzZ!!111

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    I'd get an M16, just more options that way then with an uzi. It's certainly not cheap though.
     
  13. blkgs4

    blkgs4 New Member

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    I'd pick up a RDIAS for an M16, then buy a SOCOM MFG AR15, LRM 9mm suppressed upper, then put my name on the waiting list for the .22 belt fed upper. I think that could be done for 15k.
     
  14. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    Yeah. Just don't plop down any money for a fucking Shrike.

    Echoratz, I've been to FGE, and they have a badass store, and the people seemed fairly knowledgable. What exactly did they tell you? They're an SOT-holder, so they should know what they're talking about, but every now and then, someone words something wrong, or someone hears it a little wrong. On the internet, hardly anyone spreads correct information, so I thought I'd go in depth there for a second to make sure the right stuff got to the thread starter in case he didn't already know. Class III refers to the type of FFL needed to sell the firearms.

    Individuals do not get Class III licenses without already having an FFL. To have an FFL now, you have to have an actual storefront that is a DIFFERENT location from your home. This was not always the case, and is the source of the urban legend that the ATF can come search your home at any time and ask to see your machineguns. It's not true, unless your place of business for your C3 FFL was also your home. They don't allow this anymore, so it's not an issue. It was never an issue for individual NFA item owners. The ATF doesn't have a master list of who owns what. The IRS has a list of tax documents, and since the ATF is no longer part of the IRS, they cannot look at your tax documents without a warrant or your permission. So, really it's not straight up registration of the NFA item, it's an altered, limited registration.

    Individuals simply send in a Form 4 detailing the item they're transferring possession of from a Class III/Title II/NFA/Whatever-you-want-to-call-it dealer to themselves. This form, along with the $200, is an application for a tax stamp. It's an actual stamp, like you find on cigarette packs and some other things. Like the Brits made the Colonies put on all their shit before the revolutionary war. Same deal. The stamp goes on the Form 4, and gets sent back to you. You make a copy of the Form 4 to keep with the item wherever you take it, and put the original form in a safe place, like a very fire-resistant safe/vault/safe-deposit box. You may have to pay another $200 transfer fee to transfer it from the individual selling the item to the dealer, in addition to the one from the dealer to you. Some sellers are willing to drop $200 off the price of the item, depending on the item, if this has to be done, but I've never heard of a seller dropping the price for the tax stamp fee.

    Speaking of which, my friend has two MP5's. They're both stored in safe-deposit boxes in a bank.
     
  15. 01_Cruiser

    01_Cruiser An American Classic OT Supporter

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    the guns or the paperwork :ugh:
     
  16. blkgs4

    blkgs4 New Member

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    :wiggle:
     
  17. blkgs4

    blkgs4 New Member

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    There is a guy here in Atlanta, who keeps a couple of HK sears and a couple of M16 RDIAS in his safety deposit box.
     
  18. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

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    hmm, this thread has been very helpful. I was at a class III dealer yesterday and they told me its illegal to use NFA/class3/whatever firearms in lawful self defense. Is this true or was he mistaken? I had never heard this before. I was in there to buy a supressor for my USP tactical, and he informed me that I couldn't use it(or any NFA item) in self defense.

    I asked him why I'm not allowed to protect my hearing in a self defense situation and he said "Its a stupid law, but if Ted Bundy walks into your house with a gun and you have your suppressed HK or a knife, you better start stabbing."

    He also said I can't carry it around or keep it in the car even though I have a concealed permit. It makes sense I guess that I can't carry it, but is it true I can't keep it securely encased in my car? He said I can only take it to the range and back or some such crap.
     
  19. Whitemax

    Whitemax New Member

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    Go to www.ar15.com They have ALL kinds of info that you need. Including all the pistol and rimfire clibers, AKs, as well as most handguns. And if you want to go cheap, just get a nice AR15 for around $800 and bump-fire it. hehehehe
    Plus there is alot that can be done with the M16\AR15 guns. Including AR pistols. You can have everything from a basic service rifle to a full on Tactical Gun, to a Safe Queen.
    And seriously look into getting a suppresor for whatever weapon you decide on. Subsonic ammo, and the $200 tax on it, and you have a gun thats as quiet as a BB gun. Hell the giant .50 cal guns sound like a regular .22lr when suppresed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2005
  20. blkgs4

    blkgs4 New Member

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    Utter BS from a dealer who thinks he knows everything. I'd like him to show me where in Federal or State law it says I can't use a suppressed firearm or even a belt-fed machine gun in a self defense situation.
    As far as carrying a suppressed firearm in your car, its a bit risky there because then its really up to the cop if he's gonna push it or not. I had accidently left a Beretta Vertec with a can sitting in my back seat, I got pulled over and the cop was like :eek4: what's that in your back seat which at that moment I realized I had probably done something very very wrong. But in the end he was cool with it and asked me where I shot at so he could come and hear some suppressed firearms later on. However he did tell me not to ride around with a suppressed firearm in my car.
    Honestly though I don't think there is a law against it (at least in Ga), but its just one of those things you shouldn't do unless you want to get hassled.
     
  21. blkgs4

    blkgs4 New Member

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    Dude did you even read the original post :rolleyes:
     
  22. Whitemax

    Whitemax New Member

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    Yes "dude" I did. And I was simply refering him to yet another site that has alot of the info he's looking for. And I was also backing up the recomendation of the m-16\AR15 units that had been suggested.
    How did anything I say go against his post? I even addressed his questions.
     
  23. blkgs4

    blkgs4 New Member

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    :ugh:

    Aight man, how about sending him a more direct link on ARF, such as the M16/NFA section: http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=14
     
  24. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

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    Thank you! I figured he was an idiot but I just wanted to make sure. Also, I'm pretty sure you can carry it in a car if its "securely encased" or "not readily available for immediate use" wich my state statutes define as inside any container that must be opened before the cotents can be used. therefore a closed glove compartment or briefcase should be fine, but just leaving it sitting in your backseat might cause you some problems.
     
  25. Heinzanova

    Heinzanova OT Supporter

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    H&K not reliable, what planet are you on??? Maybe knock off hk stuff, but not the real thing.
     

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