CEE Creatine...ooops...

Discussion in 'Fitness & Nutrition' started by PurEvl, Jun 18, 2007.

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  1. PurEvl

    PurEvl going out gassed and not half assed...

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    Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

    Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

    1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, [email protected]

    Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

    This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

    After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

    CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

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    Kre-alkalyn® supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

    Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

    1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. [email protected]

    All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn® (KA) a “Buffered” creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

    This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

    In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.
     
  2. MaineSucks

    MaineSucks OT Supporter

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    like the third or fourth bad study I've seen about CEE
     
  3. PurEvl

    PurEvl going out gassed and not half assed...

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    well its from layne norton and he attended the discussion. It is peered reviewed as well. THese guys love there science and studies and actually take this horseshit waste of money so i thought it was good reading.

    Its not saying cee is crap...just says its no better :rofl:
     
  4. Drewski

    Drewski New Member

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  5. MaineSucks

    MaineSucks OT Supporter

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    studies with negative findings toward the magical CEE
     
  6. Drewski

    Drewski New Member

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    fair enough. just pointing it out because macro did have a point, good or bad, i Dunno. This shit is way above my pay grade. :o
     
  7. BrownWalrus

    BrownWalrus New Member

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    Hm...i don't know. I have an almost full tub of creatine monohydrate and an almost full tub of CEE HCI. I got bloated from the CM, but i'm not 100% sure if it was because i did the loading phase (dumb of me, was still learning) or because it was creatine monohydrate. I would like to switch back to mono just for the taste alone. cee isn't really killing me, but it would be nice to actually look forward to your creatine. ah what the hell, it's not that, i just think the monohydrate was a little bit better for me, i might give it a go again, i just don't want that damn bloat :wtc: and come to think of it, drinking a SHITload of water plus like 4 scoops of that shit for like 5 days probably did cause the bloat, it just makes perfect sense now.
     
  8. Damnation

    Damnation OT Supporter

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    you guys really overrate the bloat though
     
  9. jackjohnson

    jackjohnson simple as something nobody knows OT Supporter

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    hmm Interesting article. I recently started using cee and for the most part it feels like it's done nothing for me. I used CM a long time ago and had great results.


    I'm the opposite. CM didn't taste bad but it was like having a "salt" texture in whatever you mixed it in. My CEE HCI (from allthewhey) can be mixed in 8 oz of water and a normal person couldn't tell you mixed anything in it.
     
  10. BrownWalrus

    BrownWalrus New Member

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    hm, strange lol. well i mix my cee with 4oz of water and just try to drink it quickly. thing is, i can't remember clearly if i had better results with cm or cee, i could be thinking i had better results with cm because it was the first time i took creatine and i was really psyched for it, who knows. i'll keep using cee and will probably try mono again and see how that works
     
  11. BrownWalrus

    BrownWalrus New Member

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    maybe...i know i didn't. then again, the guys that say they get bloated could just be getting some minor bloats. i got a huge one because i did the loading phase and drank a shitload of water for 5 days...with like 4 scoops per day. i bet if i just started using it now and just took 5g after workouts i might get a tiny bloat or no bloat at all. i'll experiment after i keep using the cee for a little more
     
  12. jackjohnson

    jackjohnson simple as something nobody knows OT Supporter

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    I had great results on mono. I did bloat (according to that bbforum link bloating is caused by taking too much) but it was welcomed since I was bulking. And every once in a while if I didn't have enough water I would get a dreaded creatine cramp.

    I haven't bloated on CEE and no cramps have occurred, but it really feels like it has done nothing.
     
  13. jackjohnson

    jackjohnson simple as something nobody knows OT Supporter

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    It seems like it you need to take more CEE to equate to CM no?
     
  14. BrownWalrus

    BrownWalrus New Member

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    that's kind of what i'm afraid of, something is definitely missing. i have never bloated or anything on CEE, but i feel like it's not doing what CM did to me...something like that, or it may not even be working at all, or maybe it is and i just got used to it now or something. well it's all good either way, i'll find out either way when i get back to trying mono eventually. i was thinking about christopher's post, and could it depend on the person if the cee is better than mono or vice versa? Or is it like this: if you respond well to mono, you will respond the same to cee and if you don't you won't respond well to mono you won't to cee either?
     
  15. macro

    macro New Member

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    those studies were not peer reviewed, at least by any journal that uses pubmed. Which basically means that its SHITE. Peer review by a muscle magazine is hardly peer review.

    you will also notice the the person performing the study is the same person selling "creasafe".

    no negative studies have been put forth regarding CEE, except by the companies selling competing products.

    the krealkayln guys tried the same thing and before them the creapure guys tried to something similar "only german creatine is safe"
     
  16. PurEvl

    PurEvl going out gassed and not half assed...

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    well layne tends to say otherwise and that they are peer reviewed. I just posted it here so i could watch it unfold just like it is:rofl::rofl::rofl: Please carry on.
     
  17. MaineSucks

    MaineSucks OT Supporter

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  18. Neo22

    Neo22 OT Supporter

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    In for the gangbang...
     
  19. BarbaraWaltersPegleg

    BarbaraWaltersPegleg Irish Guido

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    and cock pushups
     
  20. macro

    macro New Member

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    banned from bb.com for debunking similar myths of the bb.com "chosen".
     
  21. macro

    macro New Member

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    you will notice that no one is smart enough to figure out that "dr. tallon", works for CR-technologies and that he is selling Creasafe.

    and unless its on pubmed its not really a study in any legitimate journal.
     
  22. deadbolt

    deadbolt New Member

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    chris you forgot to end your post with a :)
     
  23. Damnation

    Damnation OT Supporter

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    i hate when he psots that shit
     
  24. Grouch

    Grouch Guest


    you pussy.
     
  25. macro

    macro New Member

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    this means jack shit. Sorry, but you need to get your head out of thier scientific circle jerk. Their are hundreds of doctors that try to publish everyday, studies that are crappy, poorly done or intentionally skewed.

    the fact that you cannot see why questioning the study based on his motives is not only a good thing, but imperative, shows a blindness.

    the study is relatively valid to the company reps that dont sell CEE or krealkalyn. big surpise.


    just as note- CEE is not more profitable than monohydrate, its less profitable. and its a harder sell. People know creatine, if you have it and they use it they will buy it without any coaxing.
     
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