GUN Can somebody explain this to me?

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Dranian, Feb 19, 2006.

  1. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    How are concealed carry permits constitutional? correct me if i'm wrong here but doesn't the need for a permit mean that bearing arms is a privaledge and not a right? You don't need permission to exercise a right. I've had my permit for about a year now and can't figure out why i need one.

    The Constitution of the United States of America and its Bill of Rights are the supreme law of the land, which all public servants are sworn to uphold and which supercedes all administrative rules, local ordinances, state statutes, Federal Laws, Treaties, and Executive Orders. Despite the presence of state statutes which purport to control weapons, the Constitution of the United States of America and its Bill of Rights explicitly prohibit public servants from infringing on my right to bear arms. The Constitution is in fact not a document which limits we the people, but rather a document which limits its authorized public servants.

    The 2nd amendment clearly says A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    However, even if the 2nd amendment can be interpreted to not include concealed carry or maybe its not an individual right or whatever, the 9th amendment states: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    Doesn't this mean that we have a right to carry and not a privaledge granted with a permit? Doesn't this seem to be very wrong to anybody else? I always here people talking about how its great to have concealed carry permits and reciprocity with other states but isn't it trading a right for a privaledge?

    I've heard a couple of exlanations already, like how we don't have rights anymore, we instead have "civil liberties" granted to us and regulated by the government...or how because we are 14th amendment citizens we are "subject to the jurisdiction" of congress and the only way to fix that is to apply for a "certificate of non citizenship national status" but even then you wouldn't be able to buy firearms from federal dealers because you'd be excluded from federal jurisdiction.

    I WANT MY RIGHTS BACK DAMMIT! Can somebody please explain to me how any of the current firearms laws are contitutional at all? Sorry if I sound like I'm crazy, I don't mean to, and I do have a permit and follow the laws even though I may disagree with them or not understand them.
     
  2. Artyboy

    Artyboy Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2004
    Messages:
    12,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in CO
    Whether it's just or not you'll end up in jail if you break the laws. All you can do is elect the right people into office and hopefully get them changed. Unfortunately a majority of the population seems to agree with gun control activists. I got in a big fight last night with my sister in law because she thinks that as soon as I got my CCL and start carrying I'll get myself put in prison. Everyone there was looking at me like I was some kind of maniac because I was talking about how if someone cornered me and threatened me with a gun I'd rather shoot them dead than give them what they want. Apparently if someone threatens me with a gun then they'll never get away with it and I should just do everything that they ask me to do because the cops will catch them as soon as they try to get away :rolleyes:. Besides who would ever risk jail time to shoot me?! This was in a "redneck" bar, too. Americans are getting more and more lazy and complacent.
    The worse it gets the more our rights go down the toilet.
     
  3. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    9,041
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Illinois
    I quit reading early on, but court decisions make the 2nd amendment applicable for protection from the federal government and allow state governments to create whatever infringing laws they choose. Agree or disagree thats the way things are currently.
     
  4. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    that may be true of the second but what about the 9th?
     
  5. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    I know, I'm not planning to break any laws, I just don't see how the constitution can be overruled by statutes...the constitution is the highest law we have...
     
  6. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Covington, GA
    Fixed. Carry your fucking gun.
     
  7. Artyboy

    Artyboy Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2004
    Messages:
    12,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in CO
    Exactly. In my 26 years I've never ever been searched. Then again it doesn't make much sense to carry a gun when you can't use it. You'll still get anally raped by the justice system if you use a gun to defend yourself if you don't have a license to carry it. It's a risky proposition
     
  8. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Covington, GA
    I'm not going to tell people to outright break the law, but figure out what's important to you. It's the old 6 or 12 cliche.
     
  9. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    Cite Miller v. U.S. 230 F 2d 486, 489:
    "The claim and exercise of a Constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime."
     
  10. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    now its time to really make you think i'm crazy...

    here's something to think about...in common law, all rights stem from property. this is why we need drivers licenses to operate a car, because you don't actually own your car, the state co owns it with you and thus can regulate its usage, that is why the state gets a car's manufacturer's certificate of origin, and you get a certificate of title. this is why you must keep your car registered with the state, etc.

    could it be that if you buy a firearm from a FEDERAL dealer, with FEDERAL reserve notes(a fiat currency, backed by nothing) which cannot be used to transfer property, that the FEDERAL government co-owns your firearms and this is why statute trumps the constitution? and if this is the case, is there any way around this? possibly a private sale paid for in a currency with intrinsic value(IE silver) which can be used to transfer property. I would think not, since it likely originated from a federal dealer first...but i don't know.

    with cars you can legally drive without a license if you buy a new vehicle with the mco(manufacturers certificate of origin) instead of a title, paid for in intrinsic value, don't register it with the state...thats assuming you can find a car dealership that will give you the MCO(nearly impossible) and would accept gold or silver payment for the vehicle(unlikely). It is slightly easier to do with motorcycle's though.

    Cite Thompson v. Smith 154 SE 579:
    "The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by a carriage or automobile, is not a mere privilege which a City may prohibit or permit at will, but a common right which he has under the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

    but what about firearms...i'd really like to know what happened to my rights.
     
  11. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    9,041
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Illinois
    Foot:Aren't you an EMT? To me I'm far more likely to get in a car wreck and have my ass pulled from a car, have an emt find my guy, and get a felony charge for carrying a gun in ilinois and loose all my firearm rights, than I am to actually need a gun. ymmv, but theres alot more to not getting caught then searches and metal detectors.

    Anyway as far as the 9th amendment. Heres the rub, the 14th amendment says "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

    Since another stource will better do it justice heres a snip from
    http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_bor.html
    "The "Privileges and Immunities Clause" has been interpreted as applying the Bill of Rights, which lists the privileges and immunities of the citizens, to the states. Known as "incorporation," the application of the Bill to the states did not come all at once, nor was it complete. Even today, there are some parts of the Bill which have not been incorporated. The process began unsuccessfully in the late 1800's and continued unsuccessfully right up until the 1930's. In 1947, however, in Adamson v. California (332 U.S. 46 [1947]), the Supreme Court began to accept the argument that the 14th Amendment requires the states to follow the protections of the Bill of Rights. Historians both agreed and disagreed with the Court's contention that the framers of the 14th Amendment intended incorporation since its passage ... but historians do not sit on the Court. Their opinions were less important than those of the Justices.

    The process of selectively incorporating the clauses of the Bill of Rights probably began in Twining v. New Jersey (268 U.S. 652 [1925]) which contemplated the incorporation of some of the aspects of the 8th Amendment - not because they were a part of the Bill of Rights but because they seemed to be fundamental to the concept of due process. This process of incorporating parts of the Bill of Rights because of their connection to due process began to run in parallel with the selective incorporation doctrine, where parts of the Bill of Rights were ruled to be enforceable on the states by virtue of the 14th Amendments, whether or not due process applied.

    Thus in the early 1960's, the Establishment Clause, the right to counsel, the rights of free speech, assembly, and petition, and the right against unreasonable searches and seizures were quickly incorporated. Since the early 60's, almost every clause in the Bill of Rights has been incorporated (notable exceptions are the 2nd and 3rd Amendments, the grand jury indictment clause of the 5th Amendment, and the 7th Amendment)."


    And yes I think the authors of the constitution are spinning in their graves ;)
     
  12. Pineapple Devil

    Pineapple Devil beat it!

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2001
    Messages:
    53,754
    Likes Received:
    8
  13. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019

    thank you! a 14th amendment answer was just what i was hoping for. the 14th amendment states that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION THEREOF, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside" to be subject to the jurisdiction of (congress) as well as the 14th you have to be a citizen under the terms of the 14th amendment, and since citizenship is a voluntary, revocable act, if you become a “U.S. National” under 8 U.S.C. §1408 and 1452, the current firearms laws would probably no longer apply. I have a letter drawn up to mail to the secretary of state requesting my certificate of non citizenship national status and if I do that, I probably won't need a carry permit anymore....anybody have any other explanations that i should think about?

    EDIT: The decision to abandon one’s “U.S. citizen” status while retaining their “national” status under 8 U.S.C. §1401 is guaranteed by 15 Stat. 223-224 (1868), R.S. § 1999, 8 U.S.C. § 800 (1940)
     
  14. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    explain how the second, and ninth amendment are trampled by state statute.

    EDIT: its kind of a lot of info for cliffs
     
  15. Michael Westen

    Michael Westen OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    12,356
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Miami
    Our rights have been significantly diminished since the enactment of the constitution. Typically the "reform" comes in very small ammounts so the people don't realize they are giving something up. If lots of the laws concearning weapons came up soon after the government was formed there would certainly have been a revolution against it. The purpose for an armed population is for national security as well as give the citizens the ability to rise against a corrupt government.

    As our government slowly re-writes the laws about weapons and changes the penalties we the people have a diminished ability to rise up against infringements on our rights. Think about it, they have full auto weapons, grenades, rocket launchers, tanks etc, and we get semi-auto "hunting" rifles :wtc:


    This also relates to why liberals like anti-gun stuff, it's not so much about crime. Traditional Democratic policy as well as current liberal trends favor a large and powerful central government, with lots of government run projects, companies, services etc. This policy is shared by dictatorships and communist governments. Liberals want us to give up the right to defend ourselves so they can push their ideals onto us.
     
  16. twofourtysx

    twofourtysx New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Messages:
    13,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    CA
    If you think you have something to bitch about in FL, come visit CA. It's impossible to get a CCW in my city unless you're a congressman or a woman with a restraining order against someone and the court feels that you could benifit from one.
     
  17. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    yes i'm aware of how corrupt the laws in california have become. if you become a national citizen instead of a "14th amendmant citizen" and also file some ucc paperwork those laws probably wouldn't apply to you. you also would probably have to stop using zip codes under dmm 122.32, and maybe putting "without prejudice ucc1-207" above your signature on anything you sign. among other things.
     
  18. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    if you read the "communist manifesto" by marx we have almost everything described therein in these united States
     
  19. Rooster

    Rooster y helo thar

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Connecticut
    The constitution does not always superceed state statues. States can make statutes that afford their residents MORE protection than the constitution but not any LESS. By having a permit system, we are safer in a way.
     
  20. Michael Westen

    Michael Westen OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    12,356
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Miami
    Marx had completely different intentions for his idea, and hoped it would be a peaceful prosperous lifestyle, not what soviet russia, north korea etc turned out to be :mamoru:
     
  21. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
  22. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    iteresting theory, benjamin franklin once said "those who would give up liberty for security, deserve neither"
     
  23. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    yeah...i think the only example of working communism would be native american society before we got here.
     
  24. Rooster

    Rooster y helo thar

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Connecticut
    It's not a theory of mine, I know from a class that the states can make statutes that offer more protection. Whether or not that is the actual justification for the permit system, I dont know, but it's my best guess.
     
  25. Dranian

    Dranian (..)

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 56,019
    i'm not disagreeing with that, i was saying its an interesting theory that restrictive firearms laws offer "more protection"
     

Share This Page