best language to create HUGE website?

Discussion in 'OT Technology' started by HardTech, Nov 12, 2007.

  1. HardTech

    HardTech hungry

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    What's the best language to use when creating something that's pretty massive? I have an idea for an online application/service that, when complete, should rival Facebook in terms of size. I know Facebook uses PHP, but would there be any limitations to using Java or .NET?

    btw, security is of utmost importance if it makes a difference
     
  2. crontab

    crontab (uid = 0)

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    i don't see how a mark-up language will be the limiting factor of sites with HUGE content. I don't think you mean a single page with an insane amount of crap, but a site with tons and tons of crap spanning limitless uniquely generated pages.

    i'm not a web dev, but at my previous employer.. one site housed ~15 TB of content.. most of it was jsp. another site provided 40 TB of data and was all in asp.net... the front end was the least of our concerns.
     
  3. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    if the code is written properly, pretty much anything can work.

    What do you know best?

    PHP, .Net and JSP are all used by big-names for secure web applications.
     
  4. HardTech

    HardTech hungry

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    I know Java/J2EE best, but it was from classes I took 2 years ago. I'm rusty as shit, and the most complicated PHP script I created was "When is your birthday? You are xx years old" type stuff.

    to give some additional info, it will require massive amounts of data... again, something similar to facebook. Don't worry, it's not another social networking site
     
  5. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    Well if you feel solid on the J2EE fundementals, then I'd say pickup a book from O'Reilly and it shouldn't be too hard to get back into the habbit.

    Depending on how you want to deploy, you can start with a simple tomcat server for development.

    In terms of security, J2EE is great. Washington Mutual wrote their entire customer-experience and online banking portal in JSP.
     
  6. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    You don't see too many web startups developing in Java or .NET. The reason is that web development in those languages is like slamming your balls in a safe compared to Ruby/Perl/Python/PHP, which are optimized for text manipulation. There is MUCH more overhead to do anything for a web page in Java/.NET compared to the dynamic languages. The only reason to use Java or .NET is if you have some kind of complex transactional integrity to maintain, like a bank website. If you don't have that requirement, then pick one of the dynamic languages. And even if you DO, then only code that part in Java, and the rest in a dynamic language (see apple.com). Unless there is a strange requirement you haven't expressed, scaling to a large website in any language isn't really a problem. From what you said, the application is data-driven, so your DB will be your bottleneck. Look into MySQL and MySQL Cluster, PostgreSQL, or SQL Server and SQL Server Cluster.

    There's been some pretty good discussion of this over at www.startupping.net so I would check there.

    And watch this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

    And just a word of advice... if you have to keep the idea for your business secret... its probably not a viable idea.
     
  7. HardTech

    HardTech hungry

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    Just curious, but why is this?

    thanks for your post, btw. Very informative.
     
  8. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    Because for web businesses, there isn't much value in an idea, there is value in the execution of an idea. You aren't the only one who's thought of it, and if you have to keep it a secret for it to have value... it doesn't have any.

    The other reason is that your idea probably sucks. That doesn't mean your business will fail. It just means that most successful startups change what they do radically as they go along. Why? Because they talk about what they are doing with smart people in their industry/area, and use that feedback to make what they do better, smarter, etc. But if its a secret... you can't do that. So you are so screwed.
     
  9. TheDarkHorizon

    TheDarkHorizon \xC0\xFF\xEE

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    :werd: I completely agree. And hearing startups in "stealth" mode makes me want to vomit.

    Back on topic, I chose the Django framework in Python, mainly because I love Python and can't bare to write another web app in Java/PHP. When it comes down to it, write it with whatever you're going to enjoy developing with. When it comes to scaling, your bottleneck will be your database as you grow large.
     
  10. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    ugh python is such a piece of crap. For years I had to deal with Ensim WEBppliance and thank God I'm done with that shit.
     
  11. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    Yeah, Python is terrible. Thats why those fools and morons and idiots at Google use it so much. Its shit. So they find it a real challenge to work with.

    :)
     
  12. Mint

    Mint Active Member

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    I really hope this comments on python arnt serious..

    To the OP
    MySQL + PHP


    /thread
     
  13. Penguin Man

    Penguin Man Protect Your Digital Liberties

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    Not terrible, but it has some really annoying things. I'd go with Postgres.

    PHP is a horrible piece of shit that generally leads to unmaintainable, insecure code. Nearly anything is a better choice.
     
  14. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    7 years ago I'd agree, hands-down. But MySQL has become, version after version, more and more an enterprise-class database solution.

    That is 100% a shitty coder, and not the language. Granted in JSP or .Net you're encouraged much more to use proper convention and a good framework -- but it's not the fault of PHP for shitty wannabe coders.

    In fact, I think Python takes the cake for shittiest language... With PERL being 2nd place for shittiest. I don't give a fuck how much Peyomp sackrides it, it's shitty.
     
  15. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    PHP is designed specifically to embed application logic in the view. People do what it is designed for, and so almost all PHP code is shit.

    As to Python and PHP... you never level any actual criticism. What is it you hate? Lexical scoping? lol

    But the real problem with PHP, as opposed to Perl/Python/Ruby, is there isn't a well developed MVC framework for it. Is there?
     
  16. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    CodeIgniter is okay. Not great, but it does implement MVC. Cake is another.
     
  17. whup

    whup I wish you had children and.. so that I could step

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    PHP, Java or .NET are all equally viable. The running costs on PHP and Java are going to be cheaper because of the lighter hardware demands and the free operating system / software. .NET I think is probably easier to manage for an enterprise application, followed by Java, then PHP, with PHP relying greatly on your coding style.

    Scalability has more to do with the architecture than the language. Whatever you go with, to make things scalable the main things I would do is have static content (gifs, stylesheets etc) served by fast web servers, which lets you have dedicated application server(s). Then you want to minimize on database calls and even business logic by caching whatever you can in memory using something like memcached.

    Also, make sure you write Unit tests as you go, actually writing tests for the logic as you write the logic. This will help you maintain your app as it gets bigger.

    Security-wise, PHP requires a reasonably more concerted effort for security out of the box, while .NET has reasonable built-in protection. I'm not sure about J2EE as I haven't used it for years now. No matter what you go with, you're still going to have to do a lot of extra work to secure your app, especially if you're using AJAX.
     
  18. kingtoad

    kingtoad OT Supporter

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    CakePHP. And I'd consider it "well developed".
     
  19. Dnepr

    Dnepr Guest

    You can do some massive things with Java EE...


    edit:

    I just read the whole thread and :bowrofl:
     
  20. tyrionlannister

    tyrionlannister New Member

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    Besides Cake and CI, you can always use Smarty as a templating engine if you want to roll your own MVC solution.
     
  21. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    Prado is a framework that I used at my last job along with the IDE Zend Studio. I believe it's a well developed MVC framework for PHP and very extensible. However, I wasn't at that job long enough to become fluent with it.
    http://www.pradosoft.com/

    To the OP: As a senior project in my web development class, we had to recreate facebook using all the Java tools available...mainly JSP and just plain ole Java. It was somewhat cumbersome but that was also due to the fact that we were students and still learning how to do stuff. Me personally, I'd prolly use Java because I'm more familiar with it than with PHP.
     
  22. Doc Brown

    Doc Brown Don't make me make you my hobby

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    I may not have programming experience like you guys do, but to say there's something wrong with being secretive about an idea doesn't make a bit of sense.

    There's always people with deep pockets that can take an idea you have and
    have it up and running before you even take a first step.
     
  23. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    :werd:
    Yeah I ment to say essentially the same thing, in my previous post, but forgot.

    After working for years in the oil business and having seen some of the things that can occur, I keep my mouth shut about any new idea.

    As the saying goes, "Loose lips sink ships".
     
  24. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    They've already thought of it. And if they're going to copy it, they'll do so as soon as you put it on the internet.

    And like I said, the idea probably sucks without input from others. And if it doesn't, he sure can't turn it into a business unless he can talk about it and get other people excited.

    Ultra-secretiveness is the mark of an incompetent startup entrepreneur. A total novice. It just does not work for software startups.
     
  25. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    Just to follow up, here is what the guy who created BlogLines and the company that was acquired to become Yahoo Groups has to say on the subject:

    http://www.startupping.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3894#post3894
     

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