SRS (Anonymous) Social problems, girl problems, personality type (Anonymous)

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by dave steel, Oct 20, 2005.

  1. dave steel

    dave steel My Kung Fu is the best.

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    I've been reading more about my personality type (INTJ), and a lot of it seems to be dead on for me. However, I don't like pinning my problems on one thing. I just thought it was worth mentioning

    For about a year and a half, I have been trying to change myself to be able to better fit into the societal norm. My main goal behind doing this was to get a girlfriend. I have yet to achieve that goal.

    Socially:
    I have trouble initiating conversations with people I don't know or people I only kind of know, especially if I feel like they're "above" me socially. I can't pull off small talk at all without it being awkward because I'm never quite sure what to say. If possible, I try to avoid small talk. This has left me with very few people I feel comfortable talking to.

    Girls:
    History: The one relationship I had (I suppose you could call it a relationship) sucked. I was infatuated with her even though she treated me like shit. This relationship was on and off for ~2 years, starting ~6 years ago (not counting the brief stint we had right after I decided to "change" myself). After it ended, I didn't even think about trying to have another relationship for over a year.

    Now, currently I have several issues that I don't really know how to deal with and some I'm not sure why they're happening.
    - I do not pursue physically attractive girls. I have a habit of believing that they either have a boyfriend or wouldn't want to waste their time with someone as inexperienced as me (relationship-wise, not sexually). I tend to aim for girls that I believe I could tolerate physically.
    - Of the girls I have decided to pursue (~10 since I decided to "change" myself), I've either found out that they have a boyfriend (most of them) or very quickly realized they were unattractive.
    - I do not believe that girls find me attractive, even though I have been told otherwise and I don't find myself exceedingly ugly.
    - I've never had great self-confidence (as if that wasn't obvious from all of this )
     
  2. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    Make a friend who's in really, really good mental health. You can identify them by their ability to deal with situations, confidence, and balance. Hang out with him or her. The best cure to any problem is imitation by example.
     
  3. raded

    raded New Member

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    emulating people has helped to some extent (I learned a lot this summer while working in a somewhat social atmosphere). regardless, small talk still feels very awkward.

    this is my thread, btw :o
     
  4. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    ha ha congrats on standing up :wavey:

    A social atmosphere helps ... a single awesome friend helps more.
     
  5. scaryice

    scaryice New Member

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    Sounds like you're thinking too much. Also, you have 25,000 posts in a year? Maybe you should spend less time on this site and more time improving yourself.
     
  6. kitty

    kitty Uppity ass cat OT Supporter

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    :ugh: We all do what we have to, to cope. I started posting when I was just starting to come out of my total isolation.....it helped me to cope with the idea of meeting and talking to people.
     
  7. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    I disagree with the thinking 2 much. Thinking a lot can be awesome ... when it's positive. When you're thinking nothing but doubts, it blows. People sometimes tell me I am thinking too much. It's always when I'm in a bad mood that they say this. But I don't think less when I'm in a good mood. I just think ... better.
     
  8. PocoDiablo

    PocoDiablo New Member

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    Hey, welcome to the club of guys who have no clue. You sound like a smart guy, you just need to apply yourself and LEARN - like we all do. Unless you are learning new stuff on how to be social, you'll be stuck for a while. (It only took me until I was 33 years old to decide to learn how to be social!)

    Look, simple advice, go to www.Amazon.com and buy some books on making friends, relationships, picking up chicks, etc. Read the reviews and only get ones that have top ratings.

    A great book is Dale Carnegies "How to win friends and influence people." It's only the tip of the iceberg, though.

    You may also want to consider reading some stuff from dating sites such as www.DoubleYourDating.com www.MysteryMethod.com www.SoSuave.net www.AskMen.com and www.DocLove.com. Mystery method will teach you how to approach women. SoSuave will teach you how to pick up chicks, and askmen and DocLove have good advice for long term relationships (IMO).

    It occurs to me that you KNOW you cannot get a girlfriend right now, and you are not good at socializing, so why not start going up to girls and just talking to them? Make a note (mentally) of what you say or do that makes them back off, stop talking, etc., and then DON'T do it again!

    Learning to be social is like riding a bike. You have to get on, wobble around, and then fall a whole lot. Then as you get better you learn to ride a motorcycle. You have to learn throttle, clutch, gears, and two brakes. And not fall down. Etc. You can always refine your skills, you just have to treat it like anything else you have not done before.

    It's not a big deal, I think that 90% of guys have similar issues. So go learn and see what happens.
     
  9. DiggityDogg

    DiggityDogg Guest

    Dave, if you do what this quoted text says, you will be fine.
     
  10. mrchina

    mrchina Guest

    Diggity, Dave posted this thread Annon so the advise would go to the Annon. poster. But yea, that's a great start.
     
  11. raded

    raded New Member

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    I have that book by Dale Carnegie, but I haven't read all of it. I'd like to believe that reading things like that will help me, but it doesn't unless I actively think about it and remember it while socializing, which is damn near impossible to do (comprehending what the person is saying and quickly trying to figure out the best way to respond while remembering all the "rules" from different books can be very tricky), so I end up falling back on what I've always done.

    I checked out all those sites. I used to subscribe to the DYD.com newsletter, but never really got any helpful advice from it, so I unsubscribed. MysteryMethod and DocLove are both expensive and I don't really have a way to pirate them from school, so I'll have to pass on those for now (I did sign up for the MM newsletter though). Sosusave seems to be a site focused on picking up the higher echelon of women (girls I probably couldn't keep entertained), but I'll read some more stuff from it. AskMen seems to have a bunch of good stuff that I don't have to pay a ton for.

    this is a huge issue for me. it's the knowledge that I can't get a girlfriend that makes me depressed, makes me not want to go out, makes me want to avoid talking to people, etc.

    there's a problem with this (for me, anyway). if I fail something socially (or really in anything where someone's around to witness it), I get embarrased and ashamed and become more introverted than normal. there are mistakes that I've made socially months ago that I still remember and still discourage me. I can't figure out a way around this besides completely avoiding mistakes.

    the number couldn't be that high because it seems like ~70% of the girls I talk to have boyfriends :o
     
  12. scaryice

    scaryice New Member

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    I guess you're right. If you're going to think a lot, at least be optimistic.

    But how many times do guys talk about not being able to approach girls, not knowing what to say, etc? It's because they start thinking of everything that can go wrong, and about their own insecurities.
     
  13. raded

    raded New Member

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    that's part of it, but I can never think of what to say when approaching someone out of the blue. it just seems really awkward to do.
     
  14. PocoDiablo

    PocoDiablo New Member

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    So what you are telling me is that you have just solved your first problem. You fall back on what you have always done. And you recognize that it's a mistake. So you now need to try something different. I'm not an avid reader, so I understand how it can be hard to get through all those books. (Side note: I read like crazy on the 'net, go figure. :dunno: ) But every book has a lot that you can learn from it, often after reading it more than 2-3 times. So here's a trick to jump start your conversations:

    Repeat the last few words of a sentence that someone tells you, phrashed like a question.

    Example:

    Her: So I went to school at Alta High.
    Him: Alta High?
    Her. Yeah, it's down in Smallsville.
    Him: Smallsville?
    Her: Yeah, I grew up there. My parents live there.

    The best advice I ever got about dating and women was the less you talk, the longer you last (Thanks Doc Love.) So what I did was started to ask lots of questions. That example convo above would of had me saying something like:

    Him: Oh really? Have they lived there long?
    Her: No, only about 5 years.
    Him: So where did they live before, and did you live with them?
    Her: Oh, they lived in Sacramento.
    Him: Sacramento, really? I grew up in California. And I had some friends who lived in Sacramento. Did you ever go to any cool spots there?
    Her: Oh! Yeah! We went to all sorts of cool stuff.
    Him: So tell me about it - what was the craziest thing you did there?
    Her: Goes into long story.

    For me, asking questions and letting someone else do all the talking is great. I don't have to do much work, they get to tell me their life story, and I usually try to turn it to a friendly/flirt thing if I like the woman. Another example, from last night, at Gordon Birsch at the bar:

    Me: So are you from around here?
    Bartender: No, I live over by Ballston. What about you, do you work around here?
    Me: No, I work in DC. But I live in Alexandria. Hey, where are there some good spots to hang out around here, do you have any favorites? (Note: This is one of my favorite questions to ask someone, because I learn about more cool spots to go to.)
    Bartender: Oh yeah, there are a few I really like.
    Me: So what's your favorite spot, and why?
    Bartender: Oh, I like the Clarendon Ballroom. They are easy to get to, they have great live music and dancing every night, a nice bar and really good food.
    Me: Really, what about some other spots, do you have any other favorites?
    Bartender: (Went into a long deal about other local spots, favorite types of food, etc.)

    Now what I was REALLY doing was asking her lots of questions to find out what kind of a woman she was. I asked if she liked sushi - my favorite food - and she said No. So, if I were looking for a GF, I would have said ... um, maybe she is not right for me. I may also have asked if she was a smoker, another negative for me. However, I never asked her name, and kept making her get me more water, a menu, refills on my drink, etc. I tipped her 15% and left after a while. And I did all this while sitting next to my GF. (Yeah, we go out and practice pick up tips so I can give better advice, believe it or not.)

    Okay, I understand the money thing, but sooner or later you are going to have to take some steps to solve your problem. PERSONALLY, I think the $99 I spent on the "System" by Doc Love was the best money I have EVER spent in my entire life. Reading that book TOTALLY transformed me. I cannot even begin to tell you how helpful that book was for me. It focuses on finding quality, compatible women. Long term partners, basically. I know you may be broke, but ... damn, eat the $0.99 cent special at Wendys for a while and save your money. Or throw $2 or $3 in a jar every day so you can buy it in a month or two. I mean, come on, this is something you want to solve, right? Invest a little in yourself.

    Believe it or not, I actually gave my first Doc Love book to a guy who was in the same situation as you, basically. Short guy, really shy, no GF. He wasn't ugly by a long shot, and I could totally see him as being totally successful with women once he figured it out. A few months later, after he read the book like 3 times he met a very cute and very nice woman. They've been together for over a year now. Same guy, different way of thinking about things.

    Depression is a nasty cycle. It will do that to you. It can be hard to pick yourself up and do anything about it, but believe me - if you wait until you are 33 years old (like I did) before you start reading and learning these books, you'll be a lot further behind the curve. Approaching people can be really difficult, and for that I would recommend you read the Mystery Method (MM) site. He even has a free chapter download, so go check it out. It's really VERY smart, and probably could help you a lot.

    Personally, I think MM and DocLove (DL) would be two very complimentry books for you to get. MM basically teachs you to go to a busy club and hit on women. After you hit on a lot of women you will suddenly notice that you get the same responses over and over. People are not much different. So, if you are like me, someone will say something to you and you have no response... :wtc: and you walk away in shame. But then, HOURS later you think of the PERFECT response. Now, what MM teaches you is that you'll run into another woman who will say the same thing. Guess what, now you've got the perfect response. Then you keep going, until you blow it, and then bail. Make a note of what you did wrong and try again.

    God only knows how many times I have said something horrific, or totally stupid. If you don't LEARN from those mistakes, though, you will never get better. Watch people's faces - look at their eyes. Do they frown? Shift their body away from you, cross their arms? You probably said or did something stupid. Backtrack, change the topic, quick, and make a note of what you did.

    Oooh, here's another good tip for meeting women: Always treat a woman like a best guy friend who you have not seen for a few months after the initial meet. So, if you saw your buddy Rob at the bar, and you had not seen him for a while, what would you do? Obviously, you can't say "Hey, wow, it's been a long time!" ... or can you? That almost might be a great line. Then she would be ... "Who are you?" and then you can start giving her shit right away. "I can't believe you don't remember me. Unbelievable. I think you need to buy me a drink as punishment. Then we'll see how long it takes you to remember me." Of course, after a minute you should tell her the truth "No, you don't know me, you just looked like a nice person who would buy me a drink. I'll make it up to you, your next drink is on me." Reward her for being nice to you. Leave if she's a bitch. But then after that, how would you talk to your best friend?

    "Dude, what have you been doing? Tell me everything. What's new?" Dn't stare at her tits. Don't touch her, lean in too close. Stuff like that. Don't telegraph that you want sex - you wouldn't be trying to get a blowjob from your best guy friend, so don't do that with women.

    Okay, some more advice. Go watch The Tao of Steve and Groundhog Day. Tao of Steve is obvious, and has some great advice. Groundhog day shows you what EVERY MAN has to do to learn how to meet women. It can be tough, but if you don't LEARN from your mistakes (like how you are acting now) you'll never progress.

    See, it appears to me that the thing you need is a mentor, someone to help you learn all this. It's hard, because I personally think my Dad should have taught me all this social skills crap. But he didn't and no one else did either, so I had to do it all on my own. I think we all do, so you are going to have to accept that you can get limited advice from here, and then you have to do a lot yourself. I can't teach you how to talk to women, you have to teach yourself. Not even your Dad could.

    Another tip - Approach older women and strike up conversations for practice. I find most older women are much nicer, and usually very interested in younger men, and will forgive lack of confidence. I learned a LOT about flirting from a woman who was 50. She was married, but MAN she would flirt with me like crazy. I stumbled a lot, but she just "picked me up" and "brushed me off" and kept going. Then, as you get better with older women, you'll realize younger women are the same inside. ;)

    Um, yeah, can I tell you the HORROR stories of things I have done? My god, I went to a childhood friends wedding and practically insulted her Dad in a way that was so horrible... my god... He used to be really overweight, and he had lost a LOT of weight. So I told him "Wow, Bill, you used to be so fat I am surprised you are not dead." Um, yeah, the entire crowd shut up and stared at me. I realized that I had made a mistake (but not WHAT I had done, that came MUCH later) and I wandered off. I didn't talk to anyone else during the wedding. I could sit here and tell you all the completely stupid things I have done. WELCOME TO THE CLUB. Again, you have to LEARN. However, let me give you a tip:

    Go learn in bars and restaurants that you NEVER frequent. Go alone, not with your friends, or to places you like to go. Then when you fuck up no one knows you, you can come back on a different day and try again a few times, and then blow the place off. Just move around.

    Yeah, I don't really know (obviously) but what's to say that (a) they aren't lying about having BF's (b) are not happy with their BF's or (c) are playing a game to see if you'll make a move anyway. Really. Some women are telling you "I have a boyfriend, and you need to (a) be discreet (b) prove to me you are better so I can dump him or (c) tell me to dump him so I can date you."
    I've actually told a woman to dump her boyfriend so she could date me. And guess what, she did. Why? Because her boyfriend was pathetic and she was looking for a new man.

    Last advice: Women communicate with Actions, not Words.

    Okay, people tell me I shoudl write a book, and I think I write one chapter a day sometimes... :big grin:

    Reply back, lemme know other details, we'll see if we can get you on the right path here.
     
  15. raded

    raded New Member

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    well, I've looked for books on Amazon and websites with free stuff related to the links you gave me and came up with these:
    http://www.pickupguide.com/
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...bs_b_2_1/104-6198234-7626363?v=glance&s=books
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...73923/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/104-6198234-7626363

    one of the big problems with these things is that they constantly mention clubs/bars, which I can't go to. I can't get into bars, the only 18+ clubs I've ever heard of in Oregon are strip clubs, and all ages clubs are crowded with high schoolers :o

    as for approaching people and striking up a conversation, I don't really know how to do that. I can't think of a place where it seems like a good idea to approach someone out of the blue. I'm also never able to figure out exactly what to say. I'll try saying it in my head, and it'll sound dumb, so I won't do it. I've never been able to find stuff specifically about that problem :o
     
  16. LancerV

    LancerV Something Happened OT Supporter

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    I was exactly like you.
     
  17. PocoDiablo

    PocoDiablo New Member

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    I'd get the first one for sure, and then maybe the 2nd and 3rd later. It should teach you how to approach people, which is the hardest thing to learn.

    As far as places to go, you can do stuff like this anywhere. Grocery store, Burger King, etc. Personally, I ride the Metro (subway) here in DC and it's a GREAT place to practice. It's unlikely I will ever see the same chick twice and she's a captive audience. If I fail, I just walk away.

    Approaching can be hard IF you start THINKING. You gotta stop doing that. The speedseduction.com site has some advice for that, as well as the MysteryMethod.com site. Basically, you need to walk up within 3 seconds of seeing a woman or making eye contact. It shows confidence and stops you thinking! :)

    Here's an example of an approach I did last night (please note that approaches are something I am working on, so this is not a great example to try yourself)

    Background: Fiance and I are at a club. She went to the restroom, was gone for a while. I wondered where she was, and saw what I thought was her. Turned out to be a woman who looked exactly the same from behind. She was totally hot, too. :naughty: Anyway, fiance always complains that she never gets hit on. I told her "I doubt that other chick does either." Big debate. Also, I explain how hard it is to approach ANYone but we're going to walk over there and ask her. So we bicker for 10 minutes on what to say. Finally, I've got the nerve to do it, and she holds me back - totally freaked out. "I don't know what to say!" she says. All the excuses I have told myself, and I am sure you did. Finally, I got up and told her "I'm going over there with or without you..." and she followed.

    Here is basically what we did:

    Me: [Tapped her on the shoulder] Excuse me, my fiance and I have been having a debate for a long time, and we think you are the subject matter expert (what the fuck did I say that for?!?!) on this. Basically, I noticed that you look a lot like her, and we want to know how often you get hit on by guys.
    Her: [Confused look, that's too bad from my point of view] Not very often.
    Me: [Bailing out] Okay, that is what I figured. See, my fiance never gets hit on either and I told her it's because it's very hard for guys to approach women.
    Her: Really?
    Me: Yeah, basically you have "Pretty girl syndrome" which is where guys think you are out of their league and won't come over to you. In fact, I had to convince my fiance to come over here to just ask YOU a simple question!

    Then Donna and this chick talked about something for a minute, and we headed out. This chick was totally confused, I am sure.

    Now, when I think about it, I realize that the conversation I had was pretty bad. I want to do it again, but this time do something more open ended, like:

    Me: So, when you say you don't get hit on very often, what do you mean? Once a day, a month, ever?
    Her: [I hope she tells me a story]
    Me: Okay, so tell her (fiance) about a time when you saw a guy you were interested in, and you tried to catch his attention, and it worked - what did you do?
    Her: [big story about some guy she liked]
    Me: Okay, so what kind of tips could you give to help us pick up chicks?
    Her: Why would you want to do that???
    Me: Well, we're looking for a hot chick to have a threesome with, but we're not very good at meeting people so we are trying to figure out this whole bar scene. [Note: This might be really bad, at least in MY mind, because it's like I am asking her to join us for a threesome. However, I might also say ...] So, do YOU want to join us in a threesome? :naughty:
    Her: [Either..]What? Get lost! [or] Hm, that could be fun!

    If she blows us off, fine, we move on. If she agrees, well, yeah.... So find out how you would get what you want...

    Now, of course, I have to take it further. But, realize that is a BAD thing to do for a pick up. You don't want some chick talking about other guys!!! I also cannot imagine just asking for sex like that, it's way too premature in the conversation. www.MysteryMethod.com addresses that issue, though, so you should condsider getting that guide as well, when you can.

    So, what I am saying is come up with a story, a routine, a way to get her talking and then take it from there. When you screw it up, be nice and exuse yourself and walk away. Think about what you did to screw it up and then try it on the next woman you see.

    Many of the seduction sites give tips like this, and it can be really powerful. What you have to realize is that you just have to start to learn by trying.

    Something else I realized - when I am out at a bar, I see lots of single guys, and lots of single women, but I have NEVER seen a guy approach a woman and hit on her! Have you? That means you might be the ONLY guy to do it at a particular location. Even if there is someone else, now you're only one of two? I have actually only ONCE in recent memory see a guy hit on a chick. He was a nasty, balding, poorly dressed, overbearing guy who probably had bad breath. He literally cornered some chick on the Metro and tried to get her to talk. She was giving all the blow off signals and he was ignoring them (or not noticing them, which is worse!) and she was getting more and more uncomfrtable. Fortunately he stopped, because I was about to walk over to her or get her attention and give her my seat!

    So, yeah, get that book, start reading. Just like learning to ride a bike, then a motorcycle, then we'll teach you to do wheelies, then jump over a little hill, then over a car, then over 5 cars, then over a river... it all takes practice. And you will crash. You just have to learn what you did wrong and go on. :)
     
  18. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    Right. If they were thinking about how awesomely everything could go, and about their own strengths, things would be different.
     
  19. bimmer318

    bimmer318 I'm out of applesauce

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    I just want to say how much I appreciate what you wrote PocoDiablo. Your efforts are not unnoticed!

    Thanks for the writeup!
     
  20. selvo

    selvo New Member

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    Same boat, talk to older people it doesnt freak me out as much as people my own age.
     
  21. PocoDiablo

    PocoDiablo New Member

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    Any time.

    For the record, I am kind of in the same situation as you, only I have taken the first steps to do something about it. I have bought all those books, I have been reading all those sites. I've been approaching a few women here and there, and not doing too bad. It's very rewarding to know that all it takes is practice. I've been doing it alf-assed for about 6 months and I have totally changed my outlook. So it's easy for me to share my experiences. However, when it comes to relationships, well shit I've been doing that for a LONG time. (I'm 36!)

    I've also come up with a good analogy for dating women, in a psuedo-quiz form.
    ---------------
    Learning to meet women is just like learning to ride a bike:

    1. Get training wheels
    2. Go without training wheels, fall a few times
    3. Get a ten speed
    4. Get a BMX bike, learn to hop curbs
    5. Learn to hop on ramps, little hills
    6. Learn to hop over cars, down stair railings, down stairs
    7. Get your first concussion
    8. Get a helmet and protective gear
    9. Get a motorcycle, learn about the clutch, gas, gears, and not to drop it
    10. Learn how to ride in traffic
    11. Your first lowside crash
    12. Push it harder
    13. Your first high side crash
    14. You now take it to the track
    15. Top speed of 150 mph
    16. Racing with groups of guys. Shit, they are all a lot faster than you
    17. Take a race training course
    18. Get a faster bike
    19. Hang with the big boys
    20. Win first place

    Yeah, okay, you get the idea. Being social and meeting people is a SKILL you have to practice. There will always be people better than you, or it will be hard for you, IF you don't go learn, and keep learning.

    Good luck, I'll check back in and expect some updates! :p
     
  22. raded

    raded New Member

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    I tend to keep my successes/failures to myself :o
    if something big happens, I may mention it
     
  23. raded

    raded New Member

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    thanks for the advice though
     
  24. PocoDiablo

    PocoDiablo New Member

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    I understand. I also run some forum sites so I am just a little more used to having my life in the public light. It was hard at first, but now ... I just don't mind. I find that people are very supportive, either way. With time, I hope you will, too. :)
     

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