an idear I have - web11 - a web-based x11 server

Discussion in 'OT Technology' started by piratepenguin, May 13, 2007.

  1. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    http://piratepenguin.is-a-geek.com/~declan/crap/web11/web11.html
    The webpage is an easier read if it's online, but here's what it says:
    I'm surprised I haven't found anything very similar - nothing similar at all in fact, to this, yet.

    So any thoughts?
     
  2. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    um, doesn't TS give the same end-result with their web-accessible remote desktop?

    Your idea seems like an overcomplicated, in-efficient version of VNC/RDP.


    So answer me this:

    What do you intend to provide that is possible with existing TS/RDP/PCAnywhere/VNC/etc implementations.
     
  3. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    I can't find any info about this web-accessible remote desktop. http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&c...desktop+"terminal+services"&btnG=Search&meta= ??
    I don't think it'll be very complicated to implement, x11 being so primitive.

    And I wouldn't call the idea itself OVERLY-complicated.

    Inefficient, I thought so, but I amn't so sure. VNC sends a compressed bitmap, or such? I'm going to be sending "mouse click at 400,230", "line, red, from 20,20 to 200,20". I suspect it'll be useful to throttle these messages, and all won't be increadibly bad.
    Working in Firefox, Opera and other standards compliant web-browsers. Maybe (hopefully) one day IE (that might be possible today with the canvas hacky things people who should be developing webpages put their sweat and blood into) - being able to login to my computer and use my graphical apps, other people being able to show off their graphical apps to millions of users by giving them a simple link.
     
  4. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    I found it quite easily through google:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    VNC also has a web-based viewer:

    http://www.s-code.com/products/viewerx/webvnc.aspx




    JAVA should also be considered to provide cross-platform, cross-browser client viewing that is both secure, and without the anti-ms bigotry that seems to be so popular with you.
     
  6. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    Oh ActiveX.
    Because I expect people I do business with to have ethics, you can call me what you want.

    Java (since it's going free), I'd consider it but come on.. Javascript, SVG and XMLHTTPRequest will do the job, with web-standards. < ActiveX.
    Though, Java might be more performant. We could provide it both ways - use Java or fall back to web-standards or fall back to IE hacks and maybe ActiveX (though hardly). The web-browser stuff I doubt will be half the work, so doing it a couple times doesn't seem all that daunting. But I'll start going with web-standards, which I'm already pretty good with anyhow (it's what I've had and have most interest in mastering).

    So hmm you're right, this is all very similar to TS and VNC's web-interfaces, but neither are quite where I'd like them to be. Working with bitmaps I don't want. Working with x11 I want (I doubt TS works with bitmaps). I'd prefer it work on a per-client (per-program) basis.

    This is something that has actually been on my mind on and off for months to a year as I studied all about x11 and different web technologies, I think I'll be going ahead (eventually). After it I'll be looking at making audio, particularly amaroK, work, so I can take my music everywhere I go also, and then I'll be looking at client-side storage for caching and the works. Dunno how it'll actually play the audio, might need Firefox 3 to deliver something really special (there at least was talk of supporting native OGG audio, and Theora video).
     
  7. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    so now you're talking about breaking web standards.


    I just don't see the market.
     
  8. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    I'm not sure if I'll need to, but if for that extra functionality I would, I will, and I might make it work on Opera too. What Mozilla does is typically described in a nice little spec that other browsers often feel free to pick up or standardise (Javascript, XBL..). I might be able to get around it all with SMIL or that, if I can I'll do that. I certainly will not be using Flash for it.
    I'll be using it, and the market doesn't need to be humongous, but there will surely be others who'll find it useful for the same reasons as me and others.

    Something I'll be looking at making possible (though in a hacky way probably): integrating it with a window manager (metacity, compiz) so you can make an individual application available for collaboration with a few clicks. VNC can't do that (afaik) because it works with a bitmap of the entire root window.

    That might require clients to be able to do X server switching, which I don't think is possible but the way the protocol works, maybe it can be made be not very difficultly.

    *goes looking for python/perl/php/ruby X servers*
     
  9. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    I think the *existing* java-based implementations are sufficent.

    why re-invent the wheel?
     
  10. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    Ah I see what you're saying now. A Java plugin that would, running on the user machine, start an X server listening on a port then start the client displaying to that X server. Firewalls would be an issue there, for one.

    Requiring a competent web-browser already limits severely the amount of computers this will "just work" for, requiring a non-shit internet gateway is pushing the boat out a little far I think.

    Plus, you lose the collaboration. I wonder how close this will be to OS X Leopard's collaboration features? Are they useful for anyone not using OS X (and iChat?)? That would be a mammoth of a drawback.
    Well, lol, I didn't find any. I wonder could I just use Xorg with new input and output drivers! Mmmmm.
     
  11. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    The key difference is that this Web11 setup would only allow x11-based clients to connect, and it would use the clients' x11 software to render all the graphics client-side according to commands issued from the server. VNC/RDP/Citrix actually transmit the graphics themselves across the network, at least to a certain extent, thus limiting them to LAN usage for practical purposes.
     
  12. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    not at all. I do system administration of Windows 2003 servers that are across the country. I have online-friends that put food on the table thanks to the ability for RDC/TS to gracefully scale over the internet.


    All he's doing is over-complicating something and limiting it's use.
     
  13. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    System administration is doable, yes. What he's talking about is a desktop experience from a remote server.
     
  14. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    And AJAX will not provide that. In fact, AJAX is even more hurt by poor bandwidth/latency.
     
  15. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    Does MS TS transmit bitmaps like VNC? I'd think, since they own the toolkit, they could do it on the widget level and widgets would be very, very responsive. Like how Network Transparent Widgets works, but it's not much use since nobody uses it.

    X11, and every application I use will be available. But it's very primitive. To draw a button, we have to send requests to draw rectangles, the text, and whatever.

    Like I said in the webpage, I could've went with GTK+ or Qt and done a NTW job on one of them, I'd guess, but it'd be a functional step backwards since each of them have excellent applications (I always have all of GNOME and at least most of KDE installed). I'll sure be looking at doing that anyhow, but X11 is a must.
    You could be right, but this will work for me every where in the world that I bring Firefox on a laptop (or a phone), and anywhere I install or use Firefox. Sure it'd be more responsive to get it displaying to my X server, but behind firewalls, that might be problematic in a lot of public places.

    Convenience is important. I wanna be able to login somewhere on http://piratepenguin.is-a-geek.com/~declan and click to open a desktop session. Then open my Firefox, with my bookmarks, autocomplete, cookies, etc. Click gaim to login to all of my IM accounts, etc.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2007
  16. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    Interesting!

    Xorg has a browser helper app called xrx, and there's an "RX" document type spec "to provide a means to execute remote applications, such as X Window System clients, from a World Wide Web browser".

    Anyhoo, I began thinking about raping GTK+ into two, GDK probably being a good approximation for one part of one part, and defining a protocol between the two (client and server), but my young hippie idealistic mind has me sidetracked into looking at "remote linking", a more general thing, by doing the protocol and rapage idea for /lib/ld-linux.so.2. Hehheh.
     
  17. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    This web11 could also be interesting for the godly web-rooted package manager I'm aspiring towards, that I should be developing for FreeCD (use the package before you install it!).

    Now. I'm looking at making these drivers. How the interface on the server side from the wire to the drivers will look, I don't know. Should I use IPC, and do communication from and to PHP or Perl or Python script (probably PHP because it seems to be most widespread) running on Apache, or should the drivers listen on a port of their own?

    I wanted this to be something that's very simple for an everyday user to setup, with instructions before the distributors and desktop environments pick it up (a man can dream, but I think it could be a nice feature for KDE 4, but I think I'll be lucky to have much started before KDE 4 is released stable). In that vain, I didn't want it to be needing a port of it's own.

    So I think I should leave it to the user's choice. With IPC I'm sure it'll always run slower, slowing this down even more, but without it it would require more configuration. People who don't want to do that should live with the slight extra slowness (it'd be much bigger with more users, etc).

    What C web-servers am I interested in? Damnit, I might just go with PHP/Perl/Python + IPC. Would D-Bus be very suitable? Damn them and not having PHP bindings. Now I'll needa learn a new language!
     
  18. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    mmm, don't think FF 3 will be delivering that. Christ, doesn't look like anybody's gonna pick up standardising sound for the web, with script access, in the near future. Would've really loved to do the client side storage thing, woulda been real handy too.

    Oh well. I think I'll be able to settle with PulseAudio setting out a live OGG stream, including in my page as an <object>, and played by a plugin on the user end. Obviously that'll work in limited cases, but oh well. I should also be watching out for any audio-web efforts, in the future maybe I'll have a firefox extension adding sound features to firefox's javascript, and hopefully that would help towards an eventual web-standard.
     
  19. imraven52

    imraven52 New Member

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    web11 ftw
     
  20. gnp

    gnp New Member

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    gotomeeting.com

    web server acts as proxy relay, java client, made by citrix
     
  21. piratepenguin

    piratepenguin New Member

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    Mmm nope I'm learning about POSIX shared memory and mmap now, should be workable this way and not be so slow, and PHP and the lot (I can assume) can work with it.

    I'm learning a lot already XD
    I could also architect a SWF and use Flash's client side storage and playback, if gnash (the FSF flash player) would work with it too. But, it's so far away right now.
     

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