After my workout, I eat before I drink a shake.. that bad?

Discussion in 'Fitness & Nutrition' started by SHIFT_blue, Aug 4, 2008.

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  1. SHIFT_blue

    SHIFT_blue OT Supporter

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    Due to my schedule, being in the military, and having to eat at the chowhall hours, I have to eat right after my workout. I see that its recommended to down a protein shake right after the workout then eat a real meal like an hour and a half later. But I eat a meal right after words then down a protein shake after I get home from the chowhall. The meal usually consists of a chicken breast, a tuna sandwich on wheat, some veggies, and a salad with hard boiled eggs in it.

    Is it hurting me any to be doing what Im doing?
     
  2. knucks

    knucks Active Member

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    You're thinking. Stop.
     
  3. gsxtasyd

    gsxtasyd Lift Big........Eat Big........Sleep Big........GE

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    it would be more optimal to have a PWO shake and then eat real food later but no its not hurting you.
     
  4. Cumstang02

    Cumstang02 New Member

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    If digestion and absobsion was instantaneous you'd have a problem.
     
  5. Genghis.Tron

    Genghis.Tron New Member

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    That's only true if he hasn't eaten anything before, like if you train on an empty stomach in the AM.
     
  6. Jeebus

    Jeebus Well-Known Member

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    Just lift and eat, dont sweat the details.
     
  7. gsxtasyd

    gsxtasyd Lift Big........Eat Big........Sleep Big........GE

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    not really. a protein shake is more quickly assimilated in the body than whole food regardless of how much you have eaten so it would make sense to take in a PWO shake after working out to replenish glycogen stores as quickly as possible/stop catabolism, and start rebuilding muscle however because it is so quickly assimilated blood amino acid levels do not stayed elevated long. Real food takes longer to break down and blood aminos stay elevated for longer which is what you want. So IDEALLY a PWO after and real food following that, however at the end of the day it doesn't make much of a diff. either way but eating a meal and then drinking a shake is not as OPTIMAL as the converse.
     
  8. Ceaze

    Ceaze https://hearthis.at/DoYouEvenUplift Moderator

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    Andrew is right as usual


    from Alan Aragon's Research Review:


    Is It Necessary to Spike Insulin Post-workout?

    Another concern of the fat-free-post-workout camp is the blunting of the insulin response. The rationale of maximizing the insulin response is to counteract the catabolic nature of the post-trained state, switching the hormonal milieu into an anabolic one, thus speeding recovery. Although this might benefit those who train fasted or semi-fasted, many don't realize that a pre-exercise meal (and in some cases the mid-exercise meal) is doing more than enough spiking of insulin levels for anticatabolic purposes.

    It's an important objective to not only maximize muscle protein synthesis, but also minimize protein breakdown. However, the latter doesn't require a massive insulin spike, but rather just a touch beyond basal/resting levels. To illustrate this, Rennie & colleagues found that even during a sustained high blood level of amino acids, no further inhibition of muscle protein breakdown occurred beyond insulin elevation to approximately 15 μU/l,20 which is slightly above normal basal levels of 5-10 μU/l.

    To reiterate, the pre-exercise meal can have profound effects on insulin levels that surpass the length of the training bout. Tipton's team found that as little as 6g essential amino acids + 35g sucrose taken immediately before exercise (45-50 minutes of resistance training) was enough to keep insulin elevated to roughly 4x above fasting levels 1-hour post-exercise.21 It took 2 hours post-exercise for insulin to return to resting levels. A similar insulin response was seen with 20g whey by itself taken immediately preworkout.22 If carbs were added to the pre-training protein, there would be yet a greater insulin response.

    As far as solid food goes, Capaldo's team examined various metabolic effects during a five hour period after ingesting a meal composed of 75g carb (47%), 37g prot (26%), and 17g fat (27%).23 Although this study didn't examine training effects, this meal would make a nice post-workout meal due to its absolute (and proportional) amounts of protein and carbohydrate. The fat-fearing camp would warn against the meal's fat content interfering with the insulin response. However, this meal was able to raise insulin 3 times above fasting levels within 30 minutes of consumption. At the 60 minute mark, insulin was 5 times greater than fasting. At the 300 minute mark, insulin levels were still double the fasting level.

    Elliot and colleagues compared the effect of fat-free milk, whole milk, and a higher dose of fat-free milk (to match the calories of the whole milk) taken 60 minutes post-resistance exercise.24 Whole milk was superior for increasing net protein balance. Interestingly, the calorie-matched dose of fat free milk containing 14.5g protein, versus 8.0g in the whole milk (an 81% advantage), but still got beaten. The investigators speculated over the possible mechanisms behind the outcome (insulin response, blood flow, subject response differences, fat content improving nitrogen retention), but end up dismissing each one in favor of concluding that further research is necessary to see if extra fat calories ingested with an amino acid source will increase muscle protein synthesis. Lingering questions notwithstanding, post-workout milkfat was the factor that clinched the victory — at least in overnight-fasted subjects.

    To put another nail in the coffin of the insulin spiking objective, post-exercise glycogen resynthesis is biphasic.25 Unlike the subsequent "slow" phase which can last several hours, the initial "rapid" phase of glycogenesis lasting 30-60 minutes immediately post-exercise is not dependent upon insulin. Maximizing post-workout hyperinsulinemia may be beneficial for athletes with more than a single exhaustive endurance-containing training bout separated by less than approximately 8 hours, but in all other cases, the benefit in "spiking" insulin is nil.

    In line with this theme, interesting research has surfaced in recent years challenging the idea that highly glycemic (and thus insulinemic) carbohydrates taken post-workout are the optimal for recovery. Erith's team found no difference between post-exercise high- and low-glycemic index (GI) carbohydrate intake on exercise performance the following day.26 In a similar study, Stevenson's team actually saw better next-day performance in subjects who consumed low-GI post-exercise carbohydrate than those who consumed high-GI post-exercise carbohydrate.27

    Is spiking insulin necessary post-workout? Generally not.

    -No greater inhibition of muscle protein breakdown has been seen beyond insulin elevation to approximately 15 μU/l, which is slightly above resting/basal levels of 5-10 μU/l.

    -In one study, whole milk was superior for increasing net protein balance post-workout, despite the calorie-matched dose of fat free milk containing 81% more protein.

    -The initial 30-60 minute "rapid" phase of glycogenesis immediately post-exercise is not dependent upon insulin.

    -There's no need to attempt to spike insulin for recovery purposes since maximal effects are seen at minimal elevations. Simply getting enough total substrate surrounding the training bout suffices, at least within the context of a 24-hour separation between exhaustive training of the same muscles. Multiple depleting endurance-type bouts per day (i.e., < 8 hours between bouts) may be the exception to this rule.

    -On a related tangent, it's been commonly recommended to maximize post-exercise hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia by consuming high-GI carbohydrates. However, this strategy has been seen to offer no benefit on next-day performance, and one recent study even saw endurance impairment.
     
  9. michael

    michael FLORIDA > *

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  10. DTR rex

    DTR rex New Member

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    Don't sweat the details.

    As long as you're getting in a solid helping of protein within 30min of your workout ending you're fine. If you're like me and train on an empty stomach then yes, a protein packed PWO shake is optimal to re-feed immediately.
     
  11. Genghis.Tron

    Genghis.Tron New Member

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    If you ate before the workout your blood's amino acids level and insulin level are already elevated.
     
  12. gsxtasyd

    gsxtasyd Lift Big........Eat Big........Sleep Big........GE

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    that depends on how long you ate before your workout as well as the total calorie amount versus expenditure, as well as the types and amounts of proteins carbs and fat...so maybe...
     
  13. Genghis.Tron

    Genghis.Tron New Member

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    Seriously, you just want to argue there. If you were having an olympic athlete-like energy expenditure I would agree, or if you ate more than 1.5-2 h before training. Since a bigger amount of cals should go around training anyway, it certainly wouldn't matter.
    But most studies you've read about PWO intake is done on overnight fasted subjects. I can think of one study showing an advantage of nutrient timing vs not timing at equal intake but I think it was in fat people. Anyway, I'm not arguing against timing, the thing is mostly about "OMG you gotta spike teh insulin PWO with whey isolate, malto and waxy maize".
     
  14. gsxtasyd

    gsxtasyd Lift Big........Eat Big........Sleep Big........GE

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    I didn't know I wasn't allowed to have a difference of opinion. Why don't you reread my post and try to understand what I wrote. I never mentioned ANYTHING about post work spike, insulin or otherwise. My contention is you want blood amino acids elevated throughout the day because then they are available to to build muscle. A shake does not keep them elevated for as long as whole food, this is because a shake is broken down more easily than whole food, especially if the whole food has a fat source to go along with it, which a shake usually doesn't. Finally I stated that there isn't much difference just one is more optimal than the other. Read think and try to comprehend.

    Finally olympic atheletes are more metabolically efficient than untrained athletes, many people do not eat for more than 1.5 - 2 hrs before they workout, you simply do not have the required information to make the assessment you are making, I for example am cutting right now on my low carb days I injest 35 g of carbhoydrate and 48 grams of protein along with 7 grams of fat before I workout usually 1-1.5 hrs before I lift. By the time I am done lifting and do my hour of cardio believe me I am at a point where I want to eat some carbs QUICKLY and elevate insulin to stop catabolism as catabolism is impossible on a cell to cell basis while insulin is elevated in the blood stream. Believe me those 395 calories are LONG GONE by the time I get to my shake. Sure whole food would get the job done and I could drink a shake later. But one method IS better than the other. Thanks for playing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2008
  15. Genghis.Tron

    Genghis.Tron New Member

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    Basically we agree. The OMG INSULIN wasn't about you, it's about shakes in general. If you do a good job with pre-workout food intake, you won't need a shake. Timing is important, but shakes are not.
     
  16. gsxtasyd

    gsxtasyd Lift Big........Eat Big........Sleep Big........GE

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    :bigthumb:
     
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