GUN Advice on long range rifles

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Jeff Merr, Aug 7, 2008.

  1. Jeff Merr

    Jeff Merr Elite Member

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    I currently own handguns but I want to get into rifles and start learning how to shoot long range targets. I don't hunt, this rifle would be only for the range. I am trying to do some research but there are so many calibers I don't know where to start. I think I've narrowed it down to .30-06 and a .308. I am on a 400 dollar budget, but I've seen numerous of both calibers on gunbroker for $3-400. Mossburg seems to make both in a pretty affordable rifle. Which is a better caliber as far as power/range/accuracy etc. Any other suggestions? thanks.
     
  2. TL1000RSquid

    TL1000RSquid ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    I'd go with a Savage10fp in .308
     
  3. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    What do you consider long range?
     
  4. sprite

    sprite Active Member

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    .30-06 & .308 are both suitable cartridges for long range work, and both have excellent match quality factory ammunition available.

    Your budget is going to be a problem. If you're just looking for something to shoot... sure you can get a serviceable rifle for $400. If you're looking for a legit "target rifle", you'll come up WAY short.

    I have to ask... if you're only budgeting $400 for the rifle are you aware that match grade ammunition is going run you about $1.50 per pull of the trigger?
     
  5. smartypants

    smartypants New Member

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    Remy 700 PSS can be found used for around that
     
  6. Sailor Jerry

    Sailor Jerry OT Supporter

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    Remington 700.
     
  7. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    $400 isn't going to get you very far in that game, but I suppose I'd go with the above. 223/308 wins by default if you don't reload.

    Actually, I'd be trying like hell to score a used 700, or a Howa, but that's me. How much are you budgeting towards ammo/glass? A rifle isn't shit if you are feeeding it crap bullets (crap = whatever you buy at walmart), nor if it is held back by cheap glass/mounts.

    What are your expectations, and what are you wanting to do with it? A 300yd range rifle could be filled by nearly anything/any caliber. Likewise if all you shoot is 100-200 yds, I'd be more interested in a good 22lr/17hmr for cheapness, and the ability to actually learn something about wind/position/trigger/etc.

    Lots of ways to skin this cat.

    Edit** Damn, largely beaten to the punch.
     
  8. Jeff Merr

    Jeff Merr Elite Member

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    I was aware that the .308 ammo was going to be pricey, but .30-06 runs that much? Main reason i want the gun is to learn how to fire long range, like adjusting the scope for wind, drop, etc. really interests me. I saw a few mossburgs in both calibers that ran around 300 new, for what I'm using it for, am I wasting my money?

    EDIT: Scope is a different budget ;)
     
  9. Jeff Merr

    Jeff Merr Elite Member

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    Exactly what I want to do. I just wanted something with a little punch to make things interesting.
     
  10. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    Cheapest 223 barreled action you can find (make sure it's 1:9 or faster), bed it into a fairly decent stock, and run Blackhills/Cor Bon with the 75gr AMAX.

    Well,that'd be what I'd do anyways.

    Cheapest action would include Winchester, Remmy, Savage, Stevens, or Howa. Reason being.... you can find good parts for these, and you can usually score them used for cheap.

    Remington makes a SPS tactical that has a 1:9 tube. That wouldn't be a bad place to start (I've got one sitting here that's going to be a 223AI soon).
     
  11. Jeff Merr

    Jeff Merr Elite Member

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    What would I expect to pay in the end for that setup? I don't really know jack about piecing rifles together, but sounds pretty straight forward.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2008
  12. BROKE

    BROKE Mr. Selfdestruct

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    is the r700 somethin that would be decent for dear huntin?
     
  13. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    If I was looking for an entry level, low cost, no frills, precision rifle, I'd buy this:

    http://www.snipercentral.com/entrypackage.htm

    I've currently got a fairly well equipped 10FCP, but would like a .223 for popping prairie dogs, and am seriously looking at one of these.
     
  14. sprite

    sprite Active Member

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    Oh if you're budgeting for scope separately then you can probably locate a good basic rifle to start off with.

    You've mentioned Mossberg several times... they have a decent reputation for value in their shotguns but I really don't know much about their rifles.
    I'd really say stick with Remington or Savage for a starter as these two both have good aftermarket support, especially true of the Remington 700. So if a year down the line you want to budget for better stock or a better trigger or whatever you'll have plenty of selection to choose from.
     
  15. 1979TA

    1979TA OT Supporter

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    That would work real nice for popping Coyotes up at my Grandpa's farm in Coshocton.

    I'm thinking building up my dad's older remington 700 .243. He mentioned something about a special action in it that people actually junk the gun just to have, supposedly some special edition, we shall see...


    Anywho, looks like a good package
     
  16. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    That's a interesting package. I like Howas, and think that they represent a great value in rifles. I know nothing about the stock though, as I haven't used one before. Looks decent, and B&C has been stepping up the quality a lot as of late (I LOVE the stocks they did for the Remington Ti).

    I can't however, do the twist on the 223. That would be a absolute deal breaker for me. 1:12 simply does not give you the flexibility to take advantage of the best 223 bullets.


    Check it....

    700 SPS tactical new + 550
    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=687825#Post687825

    Ditch that shitty Hogue
    - 100

    Bell and Carlson light tactical stock + 200
    http://www.bellandcarlson.com/newproducts.html

    EGW 20MOA base + 40
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=813460&t=11082005

    Burris XTR rings + 25 (on sale!)
    http://www.opticsplanet.net/burris-xtreme-tactical-30mm-rings.html

    Bed the stock, tweak the trigger - FREE/10 for Steelbed

    So there's ~770ish for a 223 that has a fast enough twist, good ergos, and should shoot lights out. For glass you have several options.

    My top picks for inexpensive glass are:
    Nikon 4.5x14x40 Buckmaster
    Super Sniper 10x
    Bushnell Elite 10x
    Leupold VXIII 3.5x10x40 with M1 knobs - Not cheap, but my favorite.

    I could probably do better, but this is all new pricing. No way I would buy the gun/action new myself. I try and pay ~350 for 700 barreled actions (though getting one in a faster twist might be difficult). I would also try and score everything on that list used as well. Bolt guns are rather simple, and it's hard to fuck them up. Ditto for machined pieces of steel/alloy. The stock is new so I doubt you'll find one of those used (I've tried). Glass can easily be sourced used, and sometimes really cheap.

    I chose the Remington because I personally think they are the best action/barrel for the money, all things included. That isn't to say that the others suck, but it's easy to source a Remington 700 used on the cheap. They are easy to bed/tweak trigger yourself, and quality parts both new and used are easy to come by. Not to mention a 700 build will hold it's value MUCH better than a Savage/Howa if you decide to sell.
     
  17. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    Mossberg rifles are garbage. They really fucked up there.

    Go with something else.
     
  18. SnakeEater

    SnakeEater OT Supporter

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    yes.
    700`s are pretty common deer slayers here in northern MI
     
  19. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    Definately a 308 if what you want to do is learn to shoot long range. Other option would be 223.

    Big consideration is barrel life. You can shoot the snot out of 223 or 308 and still have some accuracy. With the larger calibers such as 243, 300 win mag, etc barrel life is going to be much shorter.

    I too would recomend a remington 700 just because the action is better and you have more of a upgrade path.
     
  20. Jeff Merr

    Jeff Merr Elite Member

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    When calling around for used 700's, what would be a good price to jump on? just in general.
     
  21. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    Depends.

    I like $300, though thats a STEAL these days.

    Remember that Bottom metal is going to cost you ~50-60 bucks if you find just a barreled action.

    Stainless is 50-100 more.

    Some people want a premium for BDL's, engraving, wood, blah blah. Fuck those people, low ball them because you don't care about that shit.

    If you are paying more money, looks for a nice stock that you can sell. All you need are the barreled action, and the bottom metal. The difference between an ADL and BDL (or the only difference that matters to you), is that the BDL comes with a floorplate. Most stocks are inletted for BDL. You can convert a ADL to a BDL, but you need a mag box, spring, follower, and the floorplate/triggerguard assembly. This stuff is about $60 or so on the used market.

    I go as cheap as I can, though many times I ONLY want the action, as I plan on getting it rebarreled. So if you are keeping the barrel, you need to worry about twist rate.

    For 223's, you need a 1:9 to shoot the heavies (which is what you want to do). A 1:8 is better. I'd actually spend a $100 more dollars of so if I had an action with a 1:8 barrel, opposed to a 1:9 (this would guarantee stabilization of the 75gr AMAX, which is my bullet of choice).

    A 308 you need a 1:12 to shoot the 168FGMM. 175's fly better, but might need a faster twist to stabalize. 155's are where it's at, but I'm not sure you can buy these factory. They need a faster twist as well.

    I'd check pawn shops, gunshops, etc. Especially around deer season, is when you usually see an abundance of 700's showing up. Online, look at the sniper sites, varmint sites, and hunting sites to try and snag one cheap. That's usually where I pull mine.

    Some of that might sound a little technical, and picky. I don't look for a rifle first, I look for the bullet I want to shoot, and then go from there. Hence my selectiveness. Does that make any sense?
     
  22. Jeff Merr

    Jeff Merr Elite Member

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    lol.

    I'll try to do some research on the anatomy of the rifle and see if I can figure it all out by your advice.

    On another note, I thought the ADL was a youth rifle? One thing i noticed when I was browsing gunbroker is that the Reminngton 700 ADL was perfectly in my price range, but every one I opened said "youth" model on it. What does this mean? thanks again.
     
  23. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    Understood. Sometimes my advice pisses people off. When I say that X rifle sucks, it's generally not because of some brand snobbery bullshit. Most factory rifles will outshoot their owners (factory tubes these days are pretty good). I just simply have specific design parameters in mind, and perhaps I don't convey these well. Also, I like to do stuff for as little $$ as I can. Sometimes there is a better/easier way to do something for less money. That's partially why I'm not hugely hip on Savages, because I personally think one can do better for the money. Many cheap rifles are good examples of false economics; you can often do more buying used goods of repute, than shit thats new. Remember, a boltgun is a simple machine, and it's hard to fuck one up. There isn't much that can go "wrong" with one, that I myself (or you) can't fix with a little time and simple handtools.

    To understand why I do the things I do, you kinda have to understand how a rifle works. Specifically, the notion of "accuracy" and how it relates to the parts of a rifle. I have a book, entitled "The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy". It's written by a BR guy, but those guys are usually the "scientists" of the field, and thus know whats up. It's a great book that breaks down some of the basics of rifles/shooting. I had several copies at one time, but haven't seen them lately. I frequently loan them out to my friends, and they don't always return. If I can find one, I'll be happy to send it to whomever wants it. It's pretty cheap though, so it wouldn't be a big deal to get it yourself (My local wal-mart even stocks it). Here it is at Amazon;
    http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Rifle-Accuracy-Handbook-Competition/dp/0883171597/ref=pd_sim_b_2

    The ADL/BDL are somewhat older monikers that Remington has kinda gotten away from. I think ADL has been largely replaced by "SPS", and BDL by "CDL" and all that jazz. ADL's used to be primarily base models. The finish wasn't as good, they came with birch/plastic fantastic stocks, and they had an integral blind magazine. BDL's traditionally came with nicer wood, blueing, and a floorplate. I like ADL for hunting (simpler/lighter), but most of the stocks you see are inletted for the BDL models. If you are interested in getting a DBM setup (Badger/Seekins/etc), most of those work off of (or modify) the BDL inlet.
    I've been pondering that as of late actually. Boltguns are a so simple (especially 700's), and I think there is a lot of misconception about them. Unfortunately, I'm very time crunched as of late, and most of what I wrote has been written before several times over. I had the benefit of my father and his BR shooting friend/gunsmith to teach me, but I shit you not, the info is out there and a drunk monkey could execute it. Some people simply make shit a LOT harder than it is, ya know?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2008
  24. [DWI]

    [DWI] Master of Nothing

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  25. Mideel25

    Mideel25 OT Supporter

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